Doughboy

I'm trying to choose a suitable Cartridge & Stylus that will give good
quality results when recording my records onto my PC. I've already got
a good soundcard (Audiophile 24/96).

I've currently got Stanton 500AL's and Shure M44G's. The stylus'
probably need replacing on these anyway, but I find that my recordings
(through the phono input on my amp, so bypassing my rather crappy
Vestax mixer) are somewhat distorted (particularly on the bass) and
the occasional record (mostly R&B tunes) sounds very sibilant.

I'm considering an Ortofon DJ S, which has the advantage of being
directly mounted to the tonearm, rather than via a headshell, which
would eliminate setup errors in attaching the cart to the headshell. I
can get one of these for £50. I can't really afford to spend much more
than this. Would this be a good choice?

Is it correct to say that elliptical stylus' are better in terms of
quality than spherical? Are they that much better that it's worth
considering? If so, are there any such cart/stylus combos that I could
get for about the same price as the DJ S?

Cheers
Doughboy

Laurence Payne

>What's this overhang then. Not a term I'm familiar with.

http://website.lineone.net/~dcr2/pickup.html
If you swing the tone arm to the centre of the record, you'd maybe
expect it to hit dead centre. In fact, optimum tracking is achieved
by pushing it a little froward from this. By an amount referred to as
the overhang.


> I saw a
>review that recommended the DJ S, which said that it was the best for
>scratching, which suggests it's tracking is ok doesn't it?

Nope. It just suggests that the cartridge will put up with
considerable abuse. If you want to do the things DJs do to their
records - back-cueing, scratching - you need a peculiarly robust
cartridge and stylus. This won't necessarily be the best-sounding or
the best at tracking. In fact, it almost certainly won't sound as
good as one designed for normal use.

Laurence Payne

>What's this overhang then. Not a term I'm familiar with.

http://website.lineone.net/~dcr2/pickup.html
If you swing the tone arm to the centre of the record, you'd maybe
expect it to hit dead centre. In fact, optimum tracking is achieved
by pushing it a little froward from this. By an amount referred to as
the overhang.


> I saw a
>review that recommended the DJ S, which said that it was the best for
>scratching, which suggests it's tracking is ok doesn't it?

Nope. It just suggests that the cartridge will put up with
considerable abuse. If you want to do the things DJs do to their
records - back-cueing, scratching - you need a peculiarly robust
cartridge and stylus. This won't necessarily be the best-sounding or
the best at tracking. In fact, it almost certainly won't sound as
good as one designed for normal use.

James Boyk

THis has been covered in detail recently. Check Google, Groups, Advanced Search. The system consists of turntable/arm/cartridge/preamp. You shouldn't try to choose any one or two of these in isolation.


James Boyk
Music Lab, California Institute of Technology
http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk
http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~musiclab

James Boyk

THis has been covered in detail recently. Check Google, Groups, Advanced Search. The system consists of turntable/arm/cartridge/preamp. You shouldn't try to choose any one or two of these in isolation.


James Boyk
Music Lab, California Institute of Technology
http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk
http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~musiclab

Scott Dorsey

Doughboy <anon@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>The arms are whatever Gemini put on their decks. I've got a PT-2000,
>which has a height adjustable arm, and a PT-1000, which doesn't.

I would seriously recommend investing in a good arm. Those Gemini arms
really ring horribly, and that is a lot of your problem. You can play
around with trying to damp down parts with felt and move some mass around
so it doesn't ring so badly.

>>>I'm considering an Ortofon DJ S, which has the advantage of being
>>>directly mounted to the tonearm, rather than via a headshell, which
>>>would eliminate setup errors in attaching the cart to the headshell. I
>>>can get one of these for £50. I can't really afford to spend much more
>>>than this. Would this be a good choice?
>>
>>This is generally a bad idea because it doesn't allow you to adjust
>>the cartridge properly at all. It's very popular for DJs because
>>they can swap them out quickly. You really do want to spend some time
>>and set the cartridge overhang up properly; it makes a big difference in
>>tracking.
>
>What's this overhang then. Not a term I'm familiar with. I saw a
>review that recommended the DJ S, which said that it was the best for
>scratching, which suggests it's tracking is ok doesn't it?

What you want for transcription work is almost totally opposite from what
you want for a DJ turntable.

Take a look at a good introduction to turntable setup; the little booklet
that Old Colony sells is a good one. Also, get a good cartridge alignment
tool and read the instructions that came with it to adjust the various
parameters. You need to make sure the cartridge is in the right place so
that it can track properly, that it is at the right angle with respect to
the record, that it is in the right angle with respect to the groove, and
that the tracking and anti-skate forces are set for best tracking (NOT just
set according to the numbers on the data sheet, but actually set for best
performance on your arm).

You might consider the Grado DJ-100 cartridge... it will work acceptably
well on that sort of arm, without the kind of low frequency problems that
most of the Grados will. But you're going to have to do some serious
tinkering with that arm.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Scott Dorsey

Doughboy <anon@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>The arms are whatever Gemini put on their decks. I've got a PT-2000,
>which has a height adjustable arm, and a PT-1000, which doesn't.

I would seriously recommend investing in a good arm. Those Gemini arms
really ring horribly, and that is a lot of your problem. You can play
around with trying to damp down parts with felt and move some mass around
so it doesn't ring so badly.

>>>I'm considering an Ortofon DJ S, which has the advantage of being
>>>directly mounted to the tonearm, rather than via a headshell, which
>>>would eliminate setup errors in attaching the cart to the headshell. I
>>>can get one of these for £50. I can't really afford to spend much more
>>>than this. Would this be a good choice?
>>
>>This is generally a bad idea because it doesn't allow you to adjust
>>the cartridge properly at all. It's very popular for DJs because
>>they can swap them out quickly. You really do want to spend some time
>>and set the cartridge overhang up properly; it makes a big difference in
>>tracking.
>
>What's this overhang then. Not a term I'm familiar with. I saw a
>review that recommended the DJ S, which said that it was the best for
>scratching, which suggests it's tracking is ok doesn't it?

What you want for transcription work is almost totally opposite from what
you want for a DJ turntable.

Take a look at a good introduction to turntable setup; the little booklet
that Old Colony sells is a good one. Also, get a good cartridge alignment
tool and read the instructions that came with it to adjust the various
parameters. You need to make sure the cartridge is in the right place so
that it can track properly, that it is at the right angle with respect to
the record, that it is in the right angle with respect to the groove, and
that the tracking and anti-skate forces are set for best tracking (NOT just
set according to the numbers on the data sheet, but actually set for best
performance on your arm).

You might consider the Grado DJ-100 cartridge... it will work acceptably
well on that sort of arm, without the kind of low frequency problems that
most of the Grados will. But you're going to have to do some serious
tinkering with that arm.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

André Huisman

"Doughboy" <anon@invalid.com> wrote:

> The arms are whatever Gemini put on their decks. I've got a PT-2000,
> which has a height adjustable arm, and a PT-1000, which doesn't.

Then the overhang is correctly when you use a concorde version. BTW: In this
deck (high mass tone-arm) I would not use an OM-5 cartridge (and the OM
Super 10 is completely out of the question). So your best bet would be the
Night Club E (OM version is headshell mounted and very fairly priced,
Concorde version is quite a bit more expensive).

--
André Huisman
New-Line licht & geluid
huisman@new-line.nl
http://www.new-line.nl
--- pardon my French, I'm Dutch ---

André Huisman

"Doughboy" <anon@invalid.com> wrote:

> The arms are whatever Gemini put on their decks. I've got a PT-2000,
> which has a height adjustable arm, and a PT-1000, which doesn't.

Then the overhang is correctly when you use a concorde version. BTW: In this
deck (high mass tone-arm) I would not use an OM-5 cartridge (and the OM
Super 10 is completely out of the question). So your best bet would be the
Night Club E (OM version is headshell mounted and very fairly priced,
Concorde version is quite a bit more expensive).

--
André Huisman
New-Line licht & geluid
huisman@new-line.nl
http://www.new-line.nl
--- pardon my French, I'm Dutch ---

Doughboy

On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:19:35 +0100, Laurence Payne
<l@laurenceDELETEpayne.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

>>What's this overhang then. Not a term I'm familiar with.
>
>http://website.lineone.net/~dcr2/pickup.html
>If you swing the tone arm to the centre of the record, you'd maybe
>expect it to hit dead centre. In fact, optimum tracking is achieved
>by pushing it a little froward from this. By an amount referred to as
>the overhang.

Thanks for the explanation and link. I've learnt something new

>
>> I saw a
>>review that recommended the DJ S, which said that it was the best for
>>scratching, which suggests it's tracking is ok doesn't it?
>
>Nope. It just suggests that the cartridge will put up with
>considerable abuse. If you want to do the things DJs do to their
>records - back-cueing, scratching - you need a peculiarly robust
>cartridge and stylus. This won't necessarily be the best-sounding or
>the best at tracking. In fact, it almost certainly won't sound as
>good as one designed for normal use.

Cheers for clearing up the difference.

Doughboy

Doughboy

On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:19:35 +0100, Laurence Payne
<l@laurenceDELETEpayne.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

>>What's this overhang then. Not a term I'm familiar with.
>
>http://website.lineone.net/~dcr2/pickup.html
>If you swing the tone arm to the centre of the record, you'd maybe
>expect it to hit dead centre. In fact, optimum tracking is achieved
>by pushing it a little froward from this. By an amount referred to as
>the overhang.

Thanks for the explanation and link. I've learnt something new

>
>> I saw a
>>review that recommended the DJ S, which said that it was the best for
>>scratching, which suggests it's tracking is ok doesn't it?
>
>Nope. It just suggests that the cartridge will put up with
>considerable abuse. If you want to do the things DJs do to their
>records - back-cueing, scratching - you need a peculiarly robust
>cartridge and stylus. This won't necessarily be the best-sounding or
>the best at tracking. In fact, it almost certainly won't sound as
>good as one designed for normal use.

Cheers for clearing up the difference.

Doughboy

Doughboy

On 27 Aug 2003 13:55:51 -0400, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>Doughboy <anon@invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>>The arms are whatever Gemini put on their decks. I've got a PT-2000,
>>which has a height adjustable arm, and a PT-1000, which doesn't.
>
>I would seriously recommend investing in a good arm. Those Gemini arms
>really ring horribly, and that is a lot of your problem. You can play
>around with trying to damp down parts with felt and move some mass around
>so it doesn't ring so badly.

Is it possible to change the arm on these decks? Certainly the one on
my PT-1000 needs attention, as it seems more wobbly/loose than it
should be, but as you suggest, the PT-2000 arm is rather lightweight
as well.

>>What's this overhang then. Not a term I'm familiar with. I saw a
>>review that recommended the DJ S, which said that it was the best for
>>scratching, which suggests it's tracking is ok doesn't it?
>
>What you want for transcription work is almost totally opposite from what
>you want for a DJ turntable.
>
>Take a look at a good introduction to turntable setup; the little booklet
>that Old Colony sells is a good one. Also, get a good cartridge alignment
>tool and read the instructions that came with it to adjust the various
>parameters. You need to make sure the cartridge is in the right place so
>that it can track properly, that it is at the right angle with respect to
>the record, that it is in the right angle with respect to the groove, and
>that the tracking and anti-skate forces are set for best tracking (NOT just
>set according to the numbers on the data sheet, but actually set for best
>performance on your arm).
>
>You might consider the Grado DJ-100 cartridge... it will work acceptably
>well on that sort of arm, without the kind of low frequency problems that
>most of the Grados will. But you're going to have to do some serious
>tinkering with that arm.
>--scott

Thanks for the advice, I'll get myself the right tools to set up my
carts, and look into the Grado DJ-100.

Doughboy

Doughboy

On 27 Aug 2003 13:55:51 -0400, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>Doughboy <anon@invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>>The arms are whatever Gemini put on their decks. I've got a PT-2000,
>>which has a height adjustable arm, and a PT-1000, which doesn't.
>
>I would seriously recommend investing in a good arm. Those Gemini arms
>really ring horribly, and that is a lot of your problem. You can play
>around with trying to damp down parts with felt and move some mass around
>so it doesn't ring so badly.

Is it possible to change the arm on these decks? Certainly the one on
my PT-1000 needs attention, as it seems more wobbly/loose than it
should be, but as you suggest, the PT-2000 arm is rather lightweight
as well.

>>What's this overhang then. Not a term I'm familiar with. I saw a
>>review that recommended the DJ S, which said that it was the best for
>>scratching, which suggests it's tracking is ok doesn't it?
>
>What you want for transcription work is almost totally opposite from what
>you want for a DJ turntable.
>
>Take a look at a good introduction to turntable setup; the little booklet
>that Old Colony sells is a good one. Also, get a good cartridge alignment
>tool and read the instructions that came with it to adjust the various
>parameters. You need to make sure the cartridge is in the right place so
>that it can track properly, that it is at the right angle with respect to
>the record, that it is in the right angle with respect to the groove, and
>that the tracking and anti-skate forces are set for best tracking (NOT just
>set according to the numbers on the data sheet, but actually set for best
>performance on your arm).
>
>You might consider the Grado DJ-100 cartridge... it will work acceptably
>well on that sort of arm, without the kind of low frequency problems that
>most of the Grados will. But you're going to have to do some serious
>tinkering with that arm.
>--scott

Thanks for the advice, I'll get myself the right tools to set up my
carts, and look into the Grado DJ-100.

Doughboy

Doughboy

Just thought of another copule of questions re: transcription.

Would I get better results by:

a) using just the slipmat (as per DJ'ing)

b) using just the turntables rubber mat

c) using both

or would it be unlikely to make much difference?

Also what would be the best setting for the tone-arm height
adjustment. For DJ'ing/scratching, I understand it is best to have it
set high (something to do with increasing the weight at the headshell
end), but of course this may not be useful when transcribing.

Doughboy

Doughboy

Just thought of another copule of questions re: transcription.

Would I get better results by:

a) using just the slipmat (as per DJ'ing)

b) using just the turntables rubber mat

c) using both

or would it be unlikely to make much difference?

Also what would be the best setting for the tone-arm height
adjustment. For DJ'ing/scratching, I understand it is best to have it
set high (something to do with increasing the weight at the headshell
end), but of course this may not be useful when transcribing.

Doughboy