Sylvia Moreno

I just got a brand new PC. None of my old soundcards will work in it,
so I'm using the onboard AC97 for sound. What I'm trying to do is
record vocals over mp3s and blend the two together to create a
"karaoke" version of the audio track, using various mixing software.
This sounds okay when I'm laying down the vocals, but whenever I try to
combine the vocal track with the music track, the timing of the vocals
are -always- off, and don't blend seamlessly with the music track. The
problem is they alway start a bit before the music track, and even
sound slightly speeded up, with a faint clicking sound in the
background.

This is NOT a software problem, as you might think. This occurs in all
software I've tried. The same software that used to be able to do this
without fault, on my old computer. When I tried this same software on
another computer, there was no timing problem, after trying to mix the
two tracks into a combined form! I've tried different mikes, too. I
like the quality of the on-board sound and want to use the AC97, so the
question is, how is this problem otherwise resolved? Any clue as to
what exactly would be causing the timing problem?

Joseph Ashwood

"Sylvia Moreno" <entropy0@realemail.net> wrote in message
news:1145696529.868412.36120@i39g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...
> I'm using the onboard AC97 for sound.

As you noted this is the problem. Actually it sounds like the problem is the
sample rate. Most likely what's happening is the program is expect 48kHz
sampling, and the hardware is delivering 44.1kHz. This discrepancy would
explain the slight speed up (it will be about 109% of the original speed),
and the early entrance (early by 9%). During original recording the output
device is only getting it at 44.1 so it has no way of playing it faster,
during later feedback the software is pushing it at 48 so the device can
play at 48.

The solution is to get a sound card capable of performing high quality
recordings. This solution will also address the major issue you're having
with hiss that you're just not hearing right now.
Joe

Sylvia Moreno

Joseph Ashwood wrote:
> "Sylvia Moreno" <entropy0@realemail.net> wrote in message
> news:1145696529.868412.36120@i39g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...
> > I'm using the onboard AC97 for sound.
>
> As you noted this is the problem. Actually it sounds like the problem is the
> sample rate. Most likely what's happening is the program is expect 48kHz
> sampling, and the hardware is delivering 44.1kHz. This discrepancy would
> explain the slight speed up (it will be about 109% of the original speed),
> and the early entrance (early by 9%). During original recording the output
> device is only getting it at 44.1 so it has no way of playing it faster,
> during later feedback the software is pushing it at 48 so the device can
> play at 48.
>
> The solution is to get a sound card capable of performing high quality
> recordings. This solution will also address the major issue you're having
> with hiss that you're just not hearing right now.
> Joe


I tried the solution of getting a good sound card, and installed my ESS
Maestro in the system. With this installed and the mic plugged into it
and the real ac97 disabled, I was not able to get ANYTHING recorded on
the mike input. I fiddled with every possible setting from every piece
of software that controls sound. However, the mic did work just barely.
Then I tried having windows set the ess sound card for voice and audio
recording, and all the playback to the ac97 built in audio. That didn't
work either. From what i seem to recall, I dont think I was even able
to get the mic via the sound card to work when ac97 was disabled. At
some point after all these changes with the hardware and software, when
i removed the ess card and returned the system to ac97, the problem
with the timing of the vocals and audio (which wasn't always speeded
up), was gone. So was the clicking noise in the background. Thing is, I
have no idea what I did, if anything, to solve it!

CWB

Best guess is that between adding that new card, disabling AC97,
removing card, enable AC97........ The AC97 is probably on a
different IRQ from what it was originally. Probably on its own this
tme and not sharing with another device.

Charlie
http://www.soundclick.com/pro/view/0...&content=music

>I tried the solution of getting a good sound card, and installed my ESS
>Maestro in the system. With this installed and the mic plugged into it
>and the real ac97 disabled, I was not able to get ANYTHING recorded on
>the mike input. I fiddled with every possible setting from every piece
>of software that controls sound. However, the mic did work just barely.
>Then I tried having windows set the ess sound card for voice and audio
>recording, and all the playback to the ac97 built in audio. That didn't
>work either. From what i seem to recall, I dont think I was even able
>to get the mic via the sound card to work when ac97 was disabled. At
>some point after all these changes with the hardware and software, when
>i removed the ess card and returned the system to ac97, the problem
>with the timing of the vocals and audio (which wasn't always speeded
>up), was gone. So was the clicking noise in the background. Thing is, I
>have no idea what I did, if anything, to solve it!

Joseph Ashwood

"Sylvia Moreno" <entropy0@realemail.net> wrote in message
news:1145736056.838887.248660@e56g2000cwe.googlegr oups.com...
> I tried the solution of getting a good sound card, and installed my ESS
> Maestro in the system.

Since I didn't recognise the brand at all I looked it up, the Maestro
appears to be a cheap consumer grade card with a modem, in fact the AC97
on-board is probably superior. Visit a good music store and ask them for the
Behringer UCA202 (http://www.behringer.com/UCA202/index.cfm?lang=ENG),
they'll try to upsell you decide for yourself. It's not going to be
professional grade, but it's probably the best you can get for $35, in fact
it's the only equipment of it's type that I'm aware of in that price range
(corrections welcomed, opinions welcomed, I don't own one). That is about as
cheap as you can get away with to get decent recording.

What you've come across is the substantial difference between a recording
capable device and a standard playback device. All the sound cards you've
probably ever bought have been playback devices, they have good DACs
(Digital-Analog Converter) and are capable of delivering sound to the
outside world, the inputs on these are generally not even worth considering.
What you need is a recording capable card, these cards are tuned the
opposite direction, they have great ADCs (Analog-Digital Converter) and will
properly translate everything that you feed them (including the hiss from
your microphone), the inputs on these are great, and they are generally more
expensive.

The other problem you're going to quickly run across is that your microphone
is probably in the same category, it's a $5 mic from a computer store,
you're going to want to change this. There are a number of inexpensive mics
around, and you'll probably need a mic preamp as well.

Combined these will probably fix the bulk of your initial problems. Your
other option is to change the sample rate on the voice recording, if you can
fool your software into treating it as 44.1 instead of 48kHz you're initial
complaint should go away. As another option your likely problem is that your
sound cards are not supplying the voltage that the mic requires to perform,
you can build an inexpensive box that creates a voltage bias on the wire, it
won't sound professional, but nothing in your signal chain is professional
so it probably won't be your biggest problem.
Joe

NRen2k5

CWB wrote:
> Best guess is that between adding that new card, disabling AC97,
> removing card, enable AC97........ The AC97 is probably on a
> different IRQ from what it was originally. Probably on its own this
> tme and not sharing with another device.
>
> Charlie

That or maybe at some point the latest proper drivers were automagically
installed for the AC97.

- NRen2k5

mcsteve

"Joseph Ashwood" wrote:
> Actually it sounds like the problem is the
> sample rate. Most likely what's happening is the program is expect 48kHz
> sampling, and the hardware is delivering 44.1kHz. This discrepancy would
> explain the slight speed up
>
> The solution is to get a sound card capable of performing high quality
> recordings. This solution will also address the major issue you're having
> with hiss that you're just not hearing right now.
>

How about buying a USB preamp, instead?
The M-Audio Mobile Pre allows multiple sample rates, up
to 48khz. Best part is, it retails for under $150.00.
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_u...USB-focus.html

My brother is a pro sound engineer. He uses the M-Audio pre as
an interface for his laptop, to run system setup software (SmaartLive).
He says it works great.

--------------------------
Steve McQ

Sucuba Dude

"mcsteve" <mcstevex1350@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:ZwM2g.637$Ne.453@trndny02...
| "Joseph Ashwood" wrote:
| > Actually it sounds like the problem is the
| > sample rate. Most likely what's happening is the program is expect 48kHz
| > sampling, and the hardware is delivering 44.1kHz. This discrepancy would
| > explain the slight speed up
| >
| > The solution is to get a sound card capable of performing high quality
| > recordings. This solution will also address the major issue you're having
| > with hiss that you're just not hearing right now.
| >
|
| How about buying a USB preamp, instead?
| The M-Audio Mobile Pre allows multiple sample rates, up
| to 48khz. Best part is, it retails for under $150.00.
| http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_u...USB-focus.html
|
| My brother is a pro sound engineer. He uses the M-Audio pre as
| an interface for his laptop, to run system setup software (SmaartLive).
| He says it works great.
|
| --------------------------
| Steve McQ

The whole M-Audio range is fantastic. Very low latency and very high quality.
The drivers can be a bit of an arse on some systems but they are something else.
That said most of the pro ones don't have a mic input

mcsteve

"Sucuba Dude" wrote:
> The whole M-Audio range is fantastic. Very low latency and very high quality.
>

Yes, that's why people use it to interface mics for 'reference' purposes,
such as RTA and system alignment. When assessing the frequency
response of a system, the last thing you want is coloration from the
signal chain that feeds the mic into the rig.

> That said most of the pro ones don't have a mic input
>

The one I referred to in my previous post has TWO mic inputs,
with phantom power. I wouldn't have mentioned it at all, if it
didn't have a goddam mic input!

In fact,here's the complete input and output list for the
Mobile Pre USB:

2 microphone inputs (XLR balanced) with 48v phantom power
stereo microphone input (1/8”)
2 high-impedance instrument/line inputs (balanced/unbalanced 1/4” TRS)
2 mono line outputs (1/4” @ -10dBV)
stereo line output (1/8”)
stereo headphone output with level control knob

------------------------
Steve McQ

Joseph Ashwood

"mcsteve" <mcstevex1350@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:ZwM2g.637$Ne.453@trndny02...
> "Joseph Ashwood" wrote:
>> Actually it sounds like the problem is the sample rate. Most likely
>> what's happening is the program is expect 48kHz sampling, and the
>> hardware is delivering 44.1kHz. This discrepancy would explain the slight
>> speed up The solution is to get a sound card capable of performing high
>> quality recordings. This solution will also address the major issue
>> you're having with hiss that you're just not hearing right now.
>>
>
> How about buying a USB preamp, instead?
> The M-Audio Mobile Pre allows multiple sample rates, up
> to 48khz. Best part is, it retails for under $150.00.
> http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_u...USB-focus.html

Sounds to me like a perfectly viable alternative. M-Audio has a solid
reputation, and so the device is almost certainly of at least acceptable
quality. It also seems to solve one of the hole in mine (the mic pre-amp)
which will simplify things greater for the OP.
Joe

Foxe

I've had this problem before and use the same sound card actually...
BUT... I use Adobe Audition to record my vocals and there is a setting
in the Options I believe that allows you to adjust for drift after the
recording.. You have to have that enabled and then go record then after
each track you record, you'll see a progress bar in the middle of the
screen adjusting for the drift / latency... it takes anywhere from 30
sec to maybe a couple min to complete, but is worth it for the
frustrations sake. I just leave it on all the time and have it work its
magic after every record, some songs have hardly any drift to begin
with and others take a bit longer.

I have noticed though that if I disable absolutely everything else
running (messenger programs, antivirus, etc.) and ONLY run Audition to
record it seems that there's no noticable drift.

Sucuba Dude

"mcsteve" <mcstevex1350@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:92U2g.2343$Cc.1356@trndny07...
|
| The one I referred to in my previous post has TWO mic inputs,
| with phantom power. I wouldn't have mentioned it at all, if it
| didn't have a goddam mic input!

I recall the USB/Firewire ones some time back, but I can't say I would want to
run one of these myself!
That said, they must be ok as they have sold shed loads of them, The only issue
are the drivers can be a pain.