AudioMadness

I just upgraded my Stereo / Home Theater system ...
" B I G - T I M E " . . . including a SACD / DVD player.

For a couple years now , I've managed to compile my own
"Favorites" CD's ... but, all from "standard" CD format CD's.

Now , I have numerous SACD's and hybrid SACD's , which ,
I'm learning quickly , can't even be directly "Copied" ,
let - alone have individual tracks mixed-into a compilation
.. . .
at least , not using "Standard" (NERO 5 , or Adaptec) software.

Anyone out there know HOW to create a "MIXED" CD format
music CD ... OR ... can someone explain the rudimentaries
about why it ISN'T possible ? ? ?


KLIPSCHORNS & SUNFIRE FOREVER !

AudioMadness

"Lymp Bagul" [lymp bagul@hotmail.com] from another group, provided a
great response ... herewith shared , along with MY reply to him :
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I gather what you are asking is why you can't rip SACD tracks to files
on your hard drive.

First, anyone who would write the software needed would have a pack of
voracious record industry lawyers attack like a scene from Jaws.
Ignoring that, the technical details.

First, SACD is a technology dependent on DVD, using DVD Disks
and drives, but a completely different method of digital encoding.
CD, DVD Video, and DVD Audio all use a system called PCM, or
Pulse Code Modulation.
This is the system where at regular intervals of time, the analog wave
form has it's voltage measured and a digital value of that voltage
is recorded. The frequency that these voltage measurements takes place
is called the sampling rate, (44,100 times per second for CD, 96K for
DVD, 192K for DVD-A) and the bit depth determines how fine a difference
in voltage can be measured.

SACD does none of that. SACD uses an encoding system called
Direct Stream Digital (DSD) that uses pulse width to record the
amplitude of the analog wave form. If you look at a DSD signal,
it has wide high state with narrow low state when the analog signal
is at it's positive peak, and wide low state with narrow high state
when the analog signal is at it's negative peak.
Thus, the digital data stream kinda looks like the analog wave it
represents. One benefit is that the digital to analog conversion is
a lot simpler for DSD than PCM. At it's simplest, you can run the
DSD stream through a passive low pass filter, and amplify what comes
out.

The problem with ripping this on your computer is that while you may
have a DVD-ROM drive on your PC, the DVD-ROM drive has no idea
whatsoever what to do with a DSD signal, and can not even recognize
the SACD disk as a valid format. In other words, you would need a
DVD-ROM drive with SACD capability before you could even get the data
into your computer.

Next, assuming we have crossed the first hurdle is what to do with the
DSD data once it is on your hard drive. To record it in SACD format,
you would need a special DVD burner that is hardware and firmware
capable of burning SACD. I don't think any exist yet.
Also, you would not even be able to listen to the ripped track,
as your sound card would not have an SACD chip on it.
The best you could hope for at this point is either hardware or
software that could down convert the DSD file into a CD standard WAV
file of 16 bit 44.1KHz, then you could mix it onto a standard CDR
with your CD tracks.

In brief, you need a DVD-ROM with SACD capabilities, and software that
can convert DSD to PCM. And a world where the lawyers will let us
do such things.
--------------------And , my Reply to him-----------------

* Outstanding * response . . . THANKS !

And , I honestly don't believe that ANY "well-to-do" recording
company would press-the-issue (of "legality") against anyone who
simply creates their own personal "Favorites" CD's , using just
the tracks that THEY want to hear (repeatedly) from CD's that they've
legitamately purchased. I've combined tracks from my Enya CD's with
tracks from Roy Orbison and Neil Diamond ... and on other CD's, put
the Stones together with CCR and Blue Oyster Cult...
....and, boiled 16 Elvis CD's down into 1 ... :')
WHY on Earth would I want to have to keep getting-up to change the
disk(s), if I KNOW in what order I like to hear them...? Likewise,
changing discs repeatedly in traffic, in the car.
People have been creating their own "PlayLists" since the cassette
tape came out. I do agree, adamantly, that artists DESERVE to be
paid for their work, AND that society "OWES" them the justice of
sever penalties for persons who would try to profit (themselves)
from pirating the works of others.
But let's not go ballistic against honest purchaser-users who simply
make their listening experiences less chaotic , by "reorganizing"
what they have purchased.
Thanks again for such an excellent response. --------------


-------------------Original Msg---------------------------

AudioMadness wrote:
>
> I just upgraded my Stereo / Home Theater system ...
> " B I G - T I M E " . . . including a SACD / DVD player.
>
> For a couple years now , I've managed to compile my own
> "Favorites" CD's ... but, all from "standard" CD format CD's.
>
> Now , I have numerous SACD's and hybrid SACD's , which ,
> I'm learning quickly , can't even be directly "Copied" ,
> let - alone have individual tracks mixed-into a compilation
> . . .
> at least , not using "Standard" (NERO 5 , or Adaptec) software.
>
> Anyone out there know HOW to create a "MIXED" CD format
> music CD ... OR ... can someone explain the rudimentaries
> about why it ISN'T possible ? ? ?
>
> KLIPSCHORNS & SUNFIRE FOREVER !

AudioMadness

"Lymp Bagul" [lymp bagul@hotmail.com] from another group, provided a
great response ... herewith shared , along with MY reply to him :
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I gather what you are asking is why you can't rip SACD tracks to files
on your hard drive.

First, anyone who would write the software needed would have a pack of
voracious record industry lawyers attack like a scene from Jaws.
Ignoring that, the technical details.

First, SACD is a technology dependent on DVD, using DVD Disks
and drives, but a completely different method of digital encoding.
CD, DVD Video, and DVD Audio all use a system called PCM, or
Pulse Code Modulation.
This is the system where at regular intervals of time, the analog wave
form has it's voltage measured and a digital value of that voltage
is recorded. The frequency that these voltage measurements takes place
is called the sampling rate, (44,100 times per second for CD, 96K for
DVD, 192K for DVD-A) and the bit depth determines how fine a difference
in voltage can be measured.

SACD does none of that. SACD uses an encoding system called
Direct Stream Digital (DSD) that uses pulse width to record the
amplitude of the analog wave form. If you look at a DSD signal,
it has wide high state with narrow low state when the analog signal
is at it's positive peak, and wide low state with narrow high state
when the analog signal is at it's negative peak.
Thus, the digital data stream kinda looks like the analog wave it
represents. One benefit is that the digital to analog conversion is
a lot simpler for DSD than PCM. At it's simplest, you can run the
DSD stream through a passive low pass filter, and amplify what comes
out.

The problem with ripping this on your computer is that while you may
have a DVD-ROM drive on your PC, the DVD-ROM drive has no idea
whatsoever what to do with a DSD signal, and can not even recognize
the SACD disk as a valid format. In other words, you would need a
DVD-ROM drive with SACD capability before you could even get the data
into your computer.

Next, assuming we have crossed the first hurdle is what to do with the
DSD data once it is on your hard drive. To record it in SACD format,
you would need a special DVD burner that is hardware and firmware
capable of burning SACD. I don't think any exist yet.
Also, you would not even be able to listen to the ripped track,
as your sound card would not have an SACD chip on it.
The best you could hope for at this point is either hardware or
software that could down convert the DSD file into a CD standard WAV
file of 16 bit 44.1KHz, then you could mix it onto a standard CDR
with your CD tracks.

In brief, you need a DVD-ROM with SACD capabilities, and software that
can convert DSD to PCM. And a world where the lawyers will let us
do such things.
--------------------And , my Reply to him-----------------

* Outstanding * response . . . THANKS !

And , I honestly don't believe that ANY "well-to-do" recording
company would press-the-issue (of "legality") against anyone who
simply creates their own personal "Favorites" CD's , using just
the tracks that THEY want to hear (repeatedly) from CD's that they've
legitamately purchased. I've combined tracks from my Enya CD's with
tracks from Roy Orbison and Neil Diamond ... and on other CD's, put
the Stones together with CCR and Blue Oyster Cult...
....and, boiled 16 Elvis CD's down into 1 ... :')
WHY on Earth would I want to have to keep getting-up to change the
disk(s), if I KNOW in what order I like to hear them...? Likewise,
changing discs repeatedly in traffic, in the car.
People have been creating their own "PlayLists" since the cassette
tape came out. I do agree, adamantly, that artists DESERVE to be
paid for their work, AND that society "OWES" them the justice of
sever penalties for persons who would try to profit (themselves)
from pirating the works of others.
But let's not go ballistic against honest purchaser-users who simply
make their listening experiences less chaotic , by "reorganizing"
what they have purchased.
Thanks again for such an excellent response. --------------


-------------------Original Msg---------------------------

AudioMadness wrote:
>
> I just upgraded my Stereo / Home Theater system ...
> " B I G - T I M E " . . . including a SACD / DVD player.
>
> For a couple years now , I've managed to compile my own
> "Favorites" CD's ... but, all from "standard" CD format CD's.
>
> Now , I have numerous SACD's and hybrid SACD's , which ,
> I'm learning quickly , can't even be directly "Copied" ,
> let - alone have individual tracks mixed-into a compilation
> . . .
> at least , not using "Standard" (NERO 5 , or Adaptec) software.
>
> Anyone out there know HOW to create a "MIXED" CD format
> music CD ... OR ... can someone explain the rudimentaries
> about why it ISN'T possible ? ? ?
>
> KLIPSCHORNS & SUNFIRE FOREVER !